Max Shnier writes (December 28, 2005):
I want to thank you for this E which is greatly appreciated. I visited Cliff's gravesite & met Pip Brimson with whom I spent many hours in London. You have covered everything so well that I don't think I can add anything. I am sending a copy to Monty Hall & Carla Goldstein for her to forward to Lanny & Esther.
When Cliff went missing I was working at Columbia Pictures in Winnipeg. It was the practice to inform family members of casualties who were expected to break the news to the parents. The Telegram informing of Clifford's MIA was actually given to me personally & I was expected to advise my Father. Monty Hall was going to the University in Winnipeg near my work & I asked him to come with me to tell my Father who had a small Deli at Selkirk & Main. We got on the Selkirk Street car & delivered the news.
Since I am sending Monty a copy of your E, there is a small story about my father's reaction when Monty told Moisha Cliff was MIA. I am asking Monty to send you an E of that story.
Shira (Cynthia) Shnier writes (December 28):
Dear Mitchell,
I was almost overwhelmed by your work on our uncle Clifford. As a mother of a soldier I was very moved by the official correspondence from the military sent to our grandmother. I can't imagine how a mother (that doesn't read the language) coped with that letter. As we say in Hebrew (sh'lo nee-da) 'That we will not know (suffer)... such an experience'.
Zack won't have leave for another two weeks, but I will show him this site when he gets home. I thank you as I'm sure the whole 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation Shniers thank you and appreciate what you have done for all of us. Again, thank you.“
Your cousin Shira (Cynthia) in Israel.
Clifford Shnier (in Arizona) writes (December 29, 2005):
Mitchell [...], is Phyllis (Pip Beck) Brimson still in touch with any members of the family? Pip tracked me down – because of my name – through a Canadian friend some time in the 80's, and after some correspondence I left further contact with her to the senior generation since there really were no reminiscences I could share with her. It would be terrific if she could see some of this material.
In the photos, I am pretty sure the portrait of the young woman tacked to the wall above Clifford is Clifford's sister, our Aunt Esther Remis. Uncle Lanny served in the Canadian Army and was stationed in England at the same time, and I believe Lanny took that photo, so it would have been no accident that Esther's picture was caught in it. [...]
Cliff in Arizona
Max Shnier (Vancouver) writes (December 30, 2005):
As the oldest Brother living at home during those times it brings back many memories to me. [...] Because he was 24 & I was 16 when he went to war, I have only a small recollection of him. [...] I remember him as being crazy about cars & in fact he had a Ford or Chevy Rumble seat Model before he joined the RCAF. He did not have any formal mechanics training but was self taught & working at the Empire Radio & Auto Supply certainly helped. His references in joining the services were D.B. Muirhead & Jimmy Irch his School principle at Emerson & the accountant at Empire respectively. As a youngster I had an after school job at Empire & worked with him for a very short time before he went away. As I remember him he was somewhat of a dare-devil & as Pip Brimson told Chana & I, he was afraid of nothing.
Myra Wolch (Winnipeg) writes (December 31, 2005):
Mitchell, I'm thrilled that you've done all this. I haven't had time to read it all but the pix are all familiar. The photo of the store was taken when my mother, Bertha was around two because the bulge under Grandma's apron is George, and I've always been told she was born a year after her parents were married. I just spoke to her and she confirmed that she was two years old, born August 5, 1907 and George was born July 7, 1909. The store was at 742 Flora Avenue, and coincidentally, the family lived in another 742, this one on Burrows Avenue when Esther was a baby. It's still a handsome house although it appears to have been made into a duplex. BK (Bertha Kliman) remembers her parents having dancing parties there because the floors were so lovely. She remembers Grandma in a lemon-yellow silk dress. By the way, Grandma was beautiful and had such peaches and cream complexion. She used to giggle and tell me her family thought she was making a mistake marrying a small town boy (from Pavolich, not the big city she came from, Kremnitz) and that he was too dark!
The picture behind Cliff is of Ruth Paull, leaning against the building and the glamour shot is Esther. Ruth Wall married Nate Portigal who ran a dress shop for years. Irving can give you more info on that romance. Ruth Portigal still lives here.
As far as romance with Ruth Paull; he always corresponded with her and sent her gifts from North Africa, a very beautiful ring that I suppose Gina has now and she was crazy about him. As we had another cousin marriage in the family, Uncle Jack and Auntie Esther, I suspect Ruth may have dreamed the relationship might lead to that, but I never sensed that Cliff was as interested although he was very fond of her.
Some years ago I heard the story of Cliff flying inder a bridge, only the version I heard from Jay Chasanoff, (now deceased) was that he had done that in England.
I was ten when he was killed, so I'm the only one of the ainiclech (grandchildren) who knew him. He was very dashing and handsome and there was something about his eyes that in later years I saw in Gogie, wide-spaced eyes, sort of and very bright.
When Grandma came to Regina after that horrible summer of '43 my mother took her to visit my Aunt Bertha Kliman, married to my father's brother David. One of their two sons had been killed over Tunisia and she was the one who said to Grandma, "but you have so many more children" and Grandma said I have ten fingers - - - -" (just for the record, am adding that because Moishe might have said it too). In english documents etc. he was Moses but no one ever called him anything but Moishe (pronounced Moisha) and he called Grandma "Sureleh" or "Sushkeleh" and adored her.
One more thing about our Grandfather. My partner was telling his kids about anti-Semitism in his youth and they were surprised to hear that Henry Ford was a well known Anti-semite. As an illustration, he told them my story of how every Chanuka Moishe would send me a $5 bill and a letter telling me that I could buy anything with it "except a Ford car!"
Best to you and yours for a happy new year.
Myra
Carla Goldstein (Winnipeg) writes (December 31, 2005):
Dear Mitchell,
Well, what a job you have done on this website.
Lately, my Father has been very busy with his memoirs, and the period 1930-1945 is very fresh in his mind. He has spoken to me of Cliff, and I have seen at least one letter from him to my Dad. My Father describes Cliff as very dashing and daring, the kind of pilot who would fly under bridges for fun.
In the photo section, the pictures on the wall above Cliff are both definitely my Mother, Esther, as I have seen these before. Actually, the portrait one, taken by my Father, was the photo used by my Grandfather Boris Remis, a professional artist, for an oil painting he did as an anniversay present. This painting has hung in my parents home all my life. The woman leaning against the pillar is also my Mother, I think in her lovely sealskin coat.
I will check all this out with my Dad soon.
Again, a job well done.
Carla
Max Shnier (Vancouver) writes (December 31, 2005):
[...] Shortly after I met Chana, I was visiting in Winnipeg & while talking to BK I mentioned that I was planing a trip to Israel & London. BK jumped on me to say that so many of the family have been to England & no one has looked up Pip Brimson who wrote that beautiful letter about Cliff. I returned to Vancouver & wrote a letter to Pip & set up the appointment for her to meet me & Chana at 1:00 pm for lunch at my hotel. Chana asked her point blank if she had had an affair with Cliff to which she said no. She did say that she had more than a little feeling for him.
She knew him by voice only in the beginning because her job was the radio operator who directed the runway landings for the returning aircraft. She actually met him when they had a big pow-wow at the base to introduce the first Lancaster. The next meeting was at a pub celebrating someone's birthday during which Cliff climbed over the runway fence & stole a live chicken. The group cooked it somehow & Cliff & Pip broke the wishbone. Her words at the time "I still have my half of that wishbone" – naturally Pip had the larger half.
Next meeting was when she & her girlfriend went to him to borrow tennis balls during which he made a remark about her cute figure. I guess it was during the chicken dinner that she told Cliff she wanted to go up in an aircraft which was always asked by the girls. Cliff's reply: "be outside Hangar x at 6:00 am tomorrow". As she says in the letter she showed up not expecting Cliff to be there which could mean major Court Marshal but lo & behold two of his crew came up to her & threw a flight uniform over her as camouflage & she had the trip of her life which she describes in her letter well [...].
Myra Wolch (Winnipeg) writes (December 31, 2005):
Sorry! I got carried away in my last e-mail and before Phil Packy Percy tells you I was all wrong must correct the location of Casa Shnier with the beautiful hardwood floors. It was at 342 Burrows Avenue, in the North-end of course.
Whenever I take my Mom and Babe to the North-end we must make a pilgrimage to the place where the house on Euclid once stood, 956 Main Street where the delicatessen once was (BK always says that she doesn't know why parents say they have to keep the house quiet while their kids are studying because "My brother Phil won the Queen's scholarship studying in the back of the deli in between making corned beef sandwiches") and after we go past 342 Burrows and hear about how Moishe's fortunes were on the upswing there and they had a nurse from Barbados to tend baby Esther who was so beautiful and had eyelashes "like the cowcatcher on a train" so get Phil to explain that, then we go past 81 Luxton where the boys (your Dad and Ally with big brother Max) rowed right into the main floor during the 1950 flood and finally the little house at 75 Polson, the final home and the one where, when I came home from a date and passed the bedroom door our grandparents were asleep, holding hands, a memory I treasure.
Next time you're in Winnipeg I'll take you on the tour.
M
Max Shnier (Vancouver) writes (December 31, 2005):
My father did not write too much english & my mother even less. Quite often my father would ask one of the kids (usually Babe) to write the letters & it wasn't important if the signature was not his as long as the name at the bottom was his. There are a number of letters supposedly from my Father or Mother & it is easy to see which were the authentic ones. My mother's signatures were always very distinct & the one referred to as being very shaky was really her usual.
The name of Clifford Charles: we had a cousin by that name, probably named after the same Grandfather. He was referred to as Cotic, & I am assuming his 2nd name to have been Charles. He never served in the services & I don't have any idea how it might have got mixed up. He passed away in his late 40's.
Carla Goldstein (Winnipeg) writes (December 31, 2005):
Dear Mitchell,
Myra is wrong, though she won't admit it. My Father took that picture of Cliff, and it was taken in my Father's own room on the base in England, and as my Father said today, "why would I have Ruth Paull's picture up". He thinks that the leaning against the pillar picture was taken at Casa Loma actually on a visit to Toronto during the war, before he went overseas, and of course he has the full picture. Though nice looking today, my Mother was exceptionally beautiful as many of my Father's pictures show. My Father has always been an avid photographer and has drawers and drawers of photos and negatives (oh what will I do with them all!!).
I showed my Dad the website today and he was as impressed as we all have been with your efforts and he will probably write to you also. He has a whole file on Cliff, with letters and photos etc. They were quite close especially when they were both stationed overseas. By the time Cliff was shot down, my Father had returned to Canada for other training and knew he had won the lottery by not being sent overseas again. My parents were in Halifax at the end of the war and my Dad met the ship that Normi came home on.
More to follow.
Carla
Myra Wolch (Winnipeg) writes (January 14, 2006) about the stuffed Panda Bear in some of the August 12, 1941 pictures, and about Clifford's scrapbook:
"Panda" belonged to Babe. I think a boyfriend might have won it at the Exhibition, Regina's big summer celebration. Anyway, the girls, Babe, Esther and Ruth used to take pictures of each other in costumes, e.g wearing fancy skates and a short skirt (Naomi might have such a picture of Babe) and often Panda was in the pix. We were all young then, and they were simpler times!
The scrapbook was one my father had kept and I believe Cliff had collected and mounted the clippings etc. I think Daddy might have gotten it from the things that were sent after Cliff was killed. My Dad was really crazy about all the Shnier siblings as they can tell you. At various times, Esther, Babe, Irving (briefly Cliff) lived with us in a 2 bedroom suite, during the depression. My father had lost his drug store and had gone to work in the Army and Navy store, managing the drug dept. I dont know that anyone contributed to the rent or food but they all contributed to the love, warmth and laughs.
I spoke to Uncle Jack this morning. He's 93 today and we talked about the web site and what a marvelous thing you've done. He told me that Cliff's nose trouble started when he, Jack, Norman and Irving(!) were playing shinny and Jack hit Cliff with a hockey stick and knocked him out cold. He remembers carrying him into the house and that Grandma gave him, (Jack) such a hard pinch that he still remembers it. Maybe you ought to hear the story from him direct, because that Oklahoma twang adds something. Also the thought of Uncle Irving playing hockey is a real revelation!
Bonnie Shnier-Moncik (Toronto) writes (January 14, 2006):
Mitchell,
First thanks for alerting us to the latest photos...this is just so wonderful. We have so very few early photos of my dad or mom...I guess any photos that existed seem to be more with the Winnipeg clan. Maybe my folks have some but we have checked any boxes they have and found little...there may be other boxes but we don't know where they may be at this time.
Mark was kind enough to make a hard copy of the web material and I took it to my Father (Irving) and Mother (Eleanor) yesterday. They were so fascinated by the binder of information and they were going to read through it during the coming days. I don't think either of them even understand what a web site is, so the hard copy is wonderful.
When I first told them about it, the first comment out of my Mother's mouth was, "Clifford was the best man at our Wedding" (which was November 24, 1940, just over 65 years ago!). I told Dad that there was reference to Clifford having worked at Empire Radio and I asked him if Clifford worked there at the same time he had worked there. Dad said that he (Irving) was living in a rooming house in Winnipeg working at Empire Radio when Clifford decided to move from Emerson to Winnipeg. Clifford moved in with him and he got Clifford the job at Empire so they were working there at the same time. About 3 days after Clifford had arrived with only a paper bag of belongings, Dad asked Clifford when the rest of his stuff would be coming. Clifford said there was nothing coming since he didn't have anything worth bringing. So my Dad (who was 5 years older) and Cliff were about the same size and they shared my Dad's clothes. According to Dad, on many occasions they would show up at the same party, not knowing the other was coming, with one wearing the jacket, and the other wearing the pants, to the same suit.
Phil remembers that Empire Radio sold home radios (the automobile part of the business was separate). The salesmen of Empire Radio would run after the Eatons delivery trucks, watching where they were delivering radios that people had previously bought. After the Eatons truck left, the Empire radio salesmen would then visit the people, and convince them to return the radio to Eatons as Empire would give them a better price.
John Shnier (Toronto) writes (January 9, 2006):
Hi Mitchell,
[...] Your website has helped to stitch Clifford Shnier, after whom many of our generation have been named, back into the extensive family quilt.
Having been one of very few of us who have visited the gravesite, I would suggest that anyone old enough to remember and young enough to be able to travel, visit the cemetery to place oneself in actual “proximity to Clifford Shnier”. It is poignant that a family member who was so obviously full of a joie de vivre, should be so far away and alone from family and friends in his resting place.
Best regards
John
Clifford Franklin Shnier couriered a printed copy of this web site to Pip Brimson, and she mailed the following thank you letter:
“12 York Road, Northampton NN1 5QG England – Jan 8 06
“Dear Cliff, Very many thanks for your letter, and most especially for the collection of material regarding the Cliff I knew during the war. It is all so interesting. I haven't finished reading it yet. It tells me so much I didn't known, and I am delighted that my book also pleased you and other members of the family.
“I shall be writing presently one of of the members of Cliff's ground crew when he was at Waddington, Tom Montague, who will remember him well – he's mentioned in my book also – and I'm sure he will be very pleased to hear about this.... I expect Tom will remember the dinner Cliff treated us all to – and as Cliff got the wishbone in the chicken we had, chose to pull it with me! It will amuse you to know that, somehow, with many other bits and pieces, that piece of wishbone still survives. I can't remember if I got my wish now, but that's not important. I kept it for luck.
“If there is anything else you would like to know, please ask me – if I can help, I will do so.... If Tom Montague comes up with anything new, I will also let you know.
“With my very best wishes for the New Year
“ – Pip Brimson
Concerning Clifford's Flying Log Book, Clifford Franklin (Arizona) writes (January 17, 2006):
As for the log:
I believe it was around the time of Moishe's death in 1961 that my dad was reading through the log. It may have been at Moishe's apartment on Lanark St. I don't recall ever seeing that log in our house on Carpathia or Mathers Bay.
Cliff in Arizona
Leonard (Uncle Lanny) Remis (Winnipeg) writes (January 14, 2006):
Dear Mitchell,
Here are 5 pictures of Clifford, some with me also, taken in England. Three of them were taken at my gunsite in Hadleigh-on-sea (near south end). The one of Cliff and Moe Fieldbloom eating was taken in a hospital in England near London, when Cliff was a patient there (recovering from malaria). The last picture is of course, Baba Sarah.
Hope you can use them as additions to the website.
Best regard,
Uncle Lanny (and Carla)
P.S. The 2 pictures you have from before were also taken by me at the gunsite.
In response to Uncle Lanny's note above, Mitchell Shnier asked about the gunsite and his posting there ...
Leonard (Uncle Lanny) Remis writes (January 26, 2006):
Dear Mitchell:
Will try to answer your questions.
Keep it up. Lanny.
I hadn't known this, but there has always been a story that Clifford flew under a bridge (an extremely dangerous thing to do). Trying to substantiate this created a flurry of e-mails, here are a few of them ...
Max Shnier (Vancouver) writes (January 9, 2006):
So now we have Cecil and Max saying Clifford flew under a bridge in Saskatchewan and Myra Wolch and Babs Asper saying he flew under the bridge in England. Assuming he did fly under a bridge, because he was flying much larger aircraft in England, I tend to believe it was in Saskatchewan.
I suggest you should canvas Norman Shnier, Allan Paull, and Lanny Remis, as well as Pip Brimson on this item as well as anything they might know about whether his last flight was a volunteer one.
Mitchell Shnier (Toronto) writes (January 9, 2006):
I plan on calling Pip in a few days to confirm she received the print-out which Clifford Franklin Shnier couriered. I'll ask about the bridge, Miss M. Meadows, the number of operations, and volunteering for the last mission.
From the comments from his flying tests in Canada, it sounds like he would not have been confident enough to try anything dangerous in Canada (or want to risk being kicked out of the Air Force).
Clifford Franklin Shnier (Arizona) writes (January 16, 2006):
When I was a kid – I could have been 9 or 10, I don't know – I remember my dad Cecil reading through something that he said was Clifford's flying log, and laughing when he found the line which he read out loud: “Grounded 30 days for flying under a bridge.” I have no idea where that document or book that Cecil was reading from is now. I think the bridge incident did happen, and I think it was under a high-level bridge in Saskatchewan, flying a trainer.
Cliff in Arizona
Max Shnier (Vancouver) writes (January 30, 2006): Yes I see the comments on his flying tests. Maybe that is why he chose to fly under a bridge, to prove he had a judge for distance. Incidentally under the AWL charge the result was CB not C13. Means "confined to Barracks 14 days".
Please also note that in passing his Pilot's course the officer said that he would make a fine pilot but his discipline might be a problem. Could that have been a reference to the Bridge incident?
Please note that I have it from other RCAF Pilots here that the punishment for such an infraction is entirely up to the base commander. It could be anything from off scott-free to a major charge.
Mitchell Shnier (Toronto) writes to Lisa Cooper (January 27, 2006):
[...] Is that correct that this (Lisa Cooper's manuscript) is written from your grandmother Pearl Unikow's viewpoint.
[...] Also, how did you possibly determine that Akiva Shnier changed his name from Agers. Is it something your grandmother knew. Is that to say I'm not really a Shnier?
Lisa Cooper (England) replies (January 30, 2006): One thing my Dad spotted on the website, in Norman Shnier's section on Moishe Shnier, is that it says Moishe arrived in Winnipeg around 1904-5 and then brought the rest of his family over.
We had always understood that it was Dudi Rusen, the husband of Faiga Shnier, who had been the first in the family to emigrate to Canada. We have Dudi arriving in Winnipeg around 1906 and becoming a successful wholesaler, enabling him to bring the rest of the family (including Mendl and Bluma and Moishe) to Canada to join him. It's an interesting discrepancy. Does Norman remember any more about this? Does he know anything about Dudi Rusen? Or did Moishe and Dudi actually go to Canada together? If Norman can shed any light on this, we'd be really interested to hear.
Norman Shnier (Toronto) replies (January 30, 2006): Yes Dudi Rusen was a successful wholesaler of Fruit and Vegetables in partnership with his good friend who's name was Solomon. Rusen, Solomon & Co. was the name of the Company.
When their respective children became involved in the business, there were differences and the partnership split up and they operated separately competing with each other. Later, when both firms had failed, and the two met each other there was an emotional reconciliation.
Anyway – if Bertha is now 98, she was born in 1908, and that means that Moishe and Sarah must have married in, say 1907. Moishe was in Canada at least two years by that time, so he would have arrived in Canada no later than 1905, and possibly 1904. Somewhere I have in my mind a date even closer than that to 1900.
Myra Wolch (Winnipeg) replies (January 31, 2006):
Bertha Kliman was born in 1907, August 5. Moishe and Sara were married about 9 months and 5 minutes before that. There's actually an invitation to the wedding which I'll find later at her house. And yes, Moishe must have come well before that although Uncle Dudi was here first and Moishe went to work as "Epstein's boy" trading with the Indians from here to Selkirk.
Babe had some beadwork and a jacket. Ask Naomi for more on this.
Also Selma Smordin has information about the ROSEN family – as it was spelled!
Grandma's father came in 1904 and it says on his shifs carte "Mike Bernstein". Auntie Sarah gave it to the historical society for a display but I'll try to track it down.
Norman Shnier (Toronto) remembers (April 9, 2006):
His grandfather, whom they called Zaida Mendel, was a kind man with a long grey beard who liked to spend time with the grandchildren, and in fact wanted to teach Norman his Bar Mitzvah portion. Norman remembers that Zaida Mendel was one of those people who never seemed to work.
Apparently Mendel was the oldest of three boys, whose father (Akiva) was a successful grain exporter, eventually to much of Europe – which is why the Ukraine was called the Breadbasket (and hence the title for Lisa Cooper's book, written by her grandmother). When the business passed to Akiva's children, Norman remembers his grandmother, Baba Bluma, frequently complaining that her husband, Mendel, only wanted to study Torah, while his youngest brother ran the grain exporting business.
There's a bit of a parallel between Norman's Zaida Mendel, and Norman's own son David, who has no interest in the Shnier family business.
Mitchell Shnier (Toronto) writes (August 8, 2006):
The Scrapbook section of the Family History section of this web site now has information from the Winnipeg census of 1906, where Moishe states that they immigrated from Russia in 1903 (though it is a bit difficult to read – but you decide for yourself, go visit).